Category: Daily Living
Hi all.
I was recently at a store where, on paying for my purchass, I found that they had changed their debit machines to touch screen with no speech. I was with my mom at the time, and we were both trying to explain to the lady at the check-out that some sort of change would have to be made for this to work for someone who is totally blind. She said that I would have to submit a complaint in writing. My mom responded by saying that I would be submitting my claim in braille, and asked who was going to read it. The lady explained that the complaint would have to be in print. I know my mom meant well, but I don't completely understand her view that everybody should have to find a braille reader to read out complaints just because braille is our main form of reading and writing. Especially in this case, since I can write the complaint on the computer and print it off.
So, my question is, was my mom right? Should everything have to be accessible for us? Should they have had to hire someone to read my braille complaint? I don't think so, but I wanted to know what others thought of this.
Yeah, I have to agree with you, unless she was saying that to make a point. Of course, it doesn't make sense to have to hire someone to read braille when there are computers and printers. But this is definitely a serious problem. Personally, I only go shopping with people I trust. That way, they can handle entering pin numbers, swiping credit cards etc. I don't trust giving that info to a stranger. Of course, cash is also out of the question, since someone could jip me and say it's a $20 when it's a $1 etc. When I shop on my own, I go online. I have no idea how I'll handle all of this in Greece, but fortunately, cash is actually accessible there, so that might make things easier, at least as far as paying for the items.
Well I wouldn't go as far as having to hire someone to read braille complaint letters, but yes, I thought it was more or less law that things had to be made accessible like the card machines and stuff. I've never actually seen a card machine that only has a touch screen not a physical keypad, but still.
If the person who will read the complaint can see, then the complaint should be in print, being accessible, to them.
Just saying, fair is fair.
And it wasn't that long ago when all we had was typewriters and we still needed to produce things in print. These are part of what it's like to live in a generally sighted population.
And lest you think I'm picking on just us, I recently had this very discussion with a religious zealot who complained of the magazines / music she was exposed to in a particular store. My response? Deal. You live in a universe that exceeds your very small sphere. Her indignation demonstrated how much more fun it is to complain than practically deal with one's surroundings.
The cash machine is a very real issue, and the store in question may not even have that much control over it. But here is a practical solution to the problem.
Ask the teller to show you where to swipe the card. You hold on to it, you swipe it.
Next, have them enter the pin, after you have extracted the card, just lean in and tell them. At no time will they have both your credit card and your pin at the same time. The number they see flash on the screen cannot be used in correspondence with your pin without other identifiable information which you shouldn't give out anyway. The problem is that too often people want to make a point, rather than solve a particular problem. Ironically, my mother would have done the extreme opposite, and I must say, the results are incredibly synonymous.
As to the law, the ADA is a civil law, not a criminal one, and like all civil law it is incumbent upon the plaintiff and not the state or anyone else to make a claim. And the company can use "undue hardship" which is loosely defined and easily interpreted in the company's favor. Not saying it should be this way, that's just the way it is. And the political types who claim to oppose it have had close to twenty years to change it, and have not. Most likely because it is not changeable. Hence better to be fit and adapt, in my opinion.
I have to agree with Tiffanitsa here. I don't trust giving a complete stranger my pin number. I don't mind giving it to someone I know and trust, but I don't know about giving it to the casheer. Most people wouldn't remember it, or care to remember it, but the bank specifically says that if you have given out your pin, and your identity then gets stolen, there's nothing they can do. In this case, I was referring more to the format of the complaint in writing rather than the machine itself. Thank you for the advice, though.
I don't think the complaint needs to be in Braille when we have computers and printers at our fingertips. there are so many things I'd like to see made accessible, but insisting that they have someone there to read a Braille complaint is stretching the limits a bit.
I don't think every thing need be accessible. This card machine is not a problem, because banks have rules setup to protect you. Also just giving your pin number to the clerk is not needed just say credit period and stand on that. They can even swipe the card for you, charge it as a credit and no pin exchange. Also your card pin is not directly connected to your bank without the card. Things like work sites, and stuff should be, but this store things is actually accessible already touch screen or not. Even sighted people are warned now against giving their pins because cards are stolen all the time. Say credit please and you have accessed it. Smile.
agree with poster above
Yes, Forereel is completely correct. Unless you want cash back, any debet card can be run as credit, and your pin is not needed. In an ideal world, the credit card machines would all be accessible, etc, but this is not an ideal world. If we did not have the ability to produce things in print ourselves, your Mom's assertion about the Braille thing might have had some weight. However, with most of us having access to a computer and/or printer, saying that we're going to provide a complaint in Braille is definitely overreaching things, in my humboe opinion. And, please forgive me, Ocean Dream, but it seems your Mom was doing an awful lot of talking on an issue that was yours to deal with, not hers.
Accessibility seems to be a delicate balance, and I personally believe it is about prioritizing. As I said, in an ideal world, everything would be accessible, but this isn't, and never will be ideal. It's also a sighted world, and I firmly believe that we need to get used to that idea, and do our parts to adapt.
Having said that, we are equal people, and do not deserve to get overlooked as technology advances. But I think it would be impossible to pick every single battle with things that are inaccessible, so we have to prioritize the things that are truly needed, and things that would just be nice to have. Of course, people, and organizations, have very different ideas about this point, but, contrary to what some think, every member of a minority community does not have to agree with each other.
Also, if we're going to claim to be equal citizens, I think we have the responsibility to adapt, where possible, to the world around us. Demanding that absolutely everything be catered to our needs, yet then saying we are equals with our sighted peers, seems a little contradictory. Just my thoughts.
No offence taken, Sister Dawn. I agree with you. I really think some parents need to learn that after a certain age, the child is no longer a child, and can deal with affairs on his or her own.
I really like your thoughts sister. In an ideal world all blind people should be given 1 million apon turning 21 then we'd have less issues. If smart accessibility wouldn't be an issue. You'd just have your financial advisor, or banker handle these pesky things. Smile. As for you mom she really means well, so smile and just tell her thanks and explain it's okay, but not in the store wait tell you are alone. She only wants the best for you.
Oh, I know that, of course. I was just agreeing with Sister Dawn's comment.
The parent thing is true but not only for the blind. I catch myself doing stuff for my daughter all the time unless reminded by either her or her mom. And my daughter can see, so try not to think of it as a blind thing. Though I've never spoken for her, except when she was little of course.
I'd just ask your mom not to, but do it when the time is right and remain rational about it. I'm not saying we parents can just get off on account of not remembering, I try and remember, but a tactful reminder doesn't hurt. Of course that depends on who you're dealing with I realize.
But if you talk about it outside the blind sphere as it were, as a problem in general, you'll go further. Your mom was a young person once and if reminded will probably remember having felt the same way you do. Just a suggestion.
and as for the speaking for someone, I'm almost 53 and had it happen to me last night. I was in a store, and the checker tried to get my friend to sign my credit card slip. She was like "no way. I make more money then her. it's her money. she signs it." He cracked up and apologized. Humor is often a good way to educate the uninformed.
Good point. Often, I find, people sometimes feel a bit uneasy if you tell them these things seriously.
the only problem with putting something through as credit, the thing you sign is electronic, so, you'd have the same issue. i can see well enough to sign the thing even if it's a random scrible, cuz my signature is never the same twice, which is aggrivating, but there you go.
frankly i do say everything should be made accessable, and the stuff that already is, like braille menus should be kept up to date, in many cases, it's not.
I certainly think that many more things should be accessible and I agree that what already is should be updated. But certain things are a bit harder to adapt both physically and economically. I actually had an idea at one point to go to the local supermarket and ask if I could label all of their shelves in braille. If nothing else, it would be eye catching and get people curious. I was also thinking, though this would take alot of help, to have separate papers written out with the names of the products as well as their directions. So, for example, if I, as a blind customer, bought something that I'd never cooked before, I could pay a small fee and get the contents of the box brailled out on a piece of paper. The store could take in a profit and so could the transcriber. Of course, this would make things a bit more expensive but asking them to do it for free sounds downright silly and I doubt the companies themselves would hire someone to do that. Anyway, what do you guys think? Does it sound like a good idea? when I told my parents, both of them laughed it off and said it was a foolish idea because the blind are treated as second class citizens and no one would care. Sorry for getting offtopic.
Actually, I think it's a good idea. I don't think the fee should be too expensive, but yeah. That would be a good thing, and if it really caught on and spread to other stores, there might end up being no fee, at least, not to you.
that's really awesome! I should post this as a separate topic and also on some other places and see what others thought.
the only thing about that is that they don't always keep the food in the same places, you should alaminate the cards and have it in large prent and braille, but then you have ishues of all the details, you can't just have a thing saying green beans, it would have to say brand, the way its cut so on so on, it easier to just have a barcode reader, then even then thats time comsuming. and then people might take lables off and stuff. IDK it is an idea to be thought more of.
Thanks for all the input. I never thought of those things. I'm sure there's a way to make this plan, or at least something, work. But I will definitely kep those in mind.
Easier to have the manufacture of the product email it to you. Smile.
not too sure about the card machine in the states or other country, but i know card machine in Australia is very assessable, as long as you know the numeric keypet. it work the same. usually enter is either beside or below 0.
as far as credit card goes, again, i can only talk in Australia vies, its mainly pin oriented anyway, so, it should be assessable that way too.
most credit/debit card can work vise verser anyway.
again, is the atitude of adapt to the technology, and get use to it. unfortunately, we are one of the minor group in the society, we, unfortunately need to suit how the world running, instead of them suits us.
the idea of labeling things in a store is useful, but, it will be quite, well, impossible dare i say to lable each and everything in a store. considering they got things moving around in quite a regular bases with different marketing and promotion strategy.
might be a better idea to get a shop assistant to help you, instead of touching/feeling every item in the store, to find something that suits you. usually, when you ask it nicely, you find most time, there're too many who more than willing to help you.
as for my own experience, maybe because i have some sight, i prefer to do it by my own. that my means, i take longer time to figure out what everything is, and where things located but i enjoy the experience... cheers
To Tiffanitsa:
Braille-labeling products at the store is actually something I've been wanting to happen also. I'm not sure having the product instructions on or even in the package would work, but at least to have the product, brand name, size/amount and barcode number on the package should be a great start. Brailled Pricing might be hard too, mainly because some stores have specials and pricing that can change pretty frequently, but maybe a sign (or Braille on each sign) on the side of each shelf or whatever saying what section it is would be good. For the pricing though, I think it should be possible to have a talking scanner, and it might have a little Braille display for people who need it. I have these Braille labels from a place called Labels for Literacy, and they have the product and brand name and the amount/size, and I had wanted to put some on some products at the store, but Mom said it wouldn't be a good idea because that might be considered as tampering with the products and there was little chance another blind person would discover the Brailled product anyway. I still honestly wish Braille on more products would be a reality, but I personally don't know how that would work, like where to start or anything. I honestly hope you can get your idea going though because it sounds good. Good luck on that. *smile*
I also think that libraries and bookstores should have scanners so that a blind person can browse thru books like sighted people can. I know for shopping in general, we can do it from online, but I like to go to a library or bookstore or any store and look around, and with Braille on the products and the ability to independently scan prices and print books, it would be much easier to do that while whoever's with me can look at other things or attend to someone else for the time I am looking.
I honestly don't consider this a sighted world that I should have to adapt to (maybe in my appearance and manners yes), but not when things are not accessible that could be made accessible. This is a world with all kinds of people; some can or cannot walk, some can or cannot see, some can or cannot hear, some have brains that work differently, etc. Instead of saying this is a "sighted", "hearing", or whatever world, and to just get used to it, I think we should consider that even though we are a minority, we should still have the same rights to have access to things. We can get customer assistants or whoever to read things to us (those jobs actually wouldn't go away because we'd still need assistance getting around crowded stores), but with the technology that is being made and is possible now, we should be able to have independent access to product information at the store and not wait to get home to identify everything. Just my opinion. *smile*
Never mind the barcode numbers being in Braille; I just thought of something else that might work out. *smile* There could be a barcode scanner hooked up to a computer and small Braille-printer at each store, and for a small fee, a person can have a product's information read and have a Braille print-out of say, the product instructions. Not sure how the barcode scanning programs work, but if it works thru some kind of program you have to launch thru the computer, there can be a password that storeworkers would know to put in so that he/she can have the program read and Braille the product information out for the customer.
Not sure about the lableing of products and/or shelves in the supermarket. As products sold, and then new ones came in, you'd have to go in and relable everything. And often you can find product instructions online, either on the manufacturer's web site, or on other sites. For example, when I buy some kind of pharmaseutical product, I can go to a site like Walgreens.com or Drugstore.com, and find the package instructions. It can be the same with frozen pizzas, oatmeal, whatever. I'm not saying you can always find instructions online, but fairly frequently.
agree with Alicia. and some prices changes every so often, it will be kind of useless to lable the wrong price anyway.
if people worry about it, why dont just shopping online? i know the idea might not as fun as physically being there, but, shop online can get exactly what you want, usually they come with the price, quantity, brrand and all kind of stuff.
Thank you, Sister Dawn. I didn't know about the online instructions. I'll have to remember that.
The bar code scanner really is a good idea and I know of at least one that's very cheap, only $75, that hooks up to a computer. The braille embosser would be very expensive, but I don't see why the info can't be put on disk or something. the only problem would be identifying the things once you got home. I mean, if there was no label on it, you'd be right back where you started. I wasn't thinking of putting the prices on the products, only the brand, size etc. Otherwise, it would be too confusing.
I don't really know if any of these ideas would work in practive, evenif they're very nice.
People move stuff around constantly, so even labelling the isles ight not work well, plus my ever lasting problem with braille signs is that there is no standard where to put them, so you'd be hard pressed to find the signs in the first place.
You could figure something out and at least put the number of the isle in braille and then have a map of what is in which isle, these things could change and I would not trust store people to always remember to update such info when things are changed around. Not bashing people who work at grocery stores, but they're often may be not the smartest or at least, they definitely are not passionatde about their jobs so making them more complex and having them do more work every time they make a change might prove useless.
Braille labelling every product would not work well either. It's a huge huge waste of material for one thing, thick plastic or paper ribbon on every product, and may be a blind customer buys one in every 20000 products made (completely random guess, I have no idea, but if you assume 1 blind cucustomer per grocery store per day, that seems reasonable), so it is a lot of cost and a lot of extra packaging for very little purpose, plus it would just take forever for a blind person to make his/her way through every isle and feel every package to figure out what's in it.
I think talking bar code scanners or use of RFID technology ismore of a way to go, stores might purchase their own scanner or two and have them available for a blind person if they want to look at things independently.
A braille embosser costs from 4 to 10000 dollars so it is prohibitively expensive to have one at every store for very little use, but bar code scanners are smaller, cheaper and more easily handled, so I think that might be a solution.
Once we have rfid tags we could even more easily and wirelessly read what products are around us and we could add information e.g. about isles etc with additional tgs.
Online shopping is the closest we'll get to fun shopping I think. I really like impulse shopping and to experiment, so I'd be all for a system where I could shop independently without the net or extensive planning. I used to hire an assistant to go to the store with me but now my wife's sighted so we do those things together.
Just a couple of cents worth of random thinking.
-B
Yes. Talking barcode scanners sound possible, as do customer service escorts. Most stores already offer this service. As long as you call them in advance to let them know you're coming, they'll usually have a customer service representative waiting for you to help you with your shopping. This has always been good enough for me, and I don't see how any store could refuse this, unless they're overcrowded, but then again, that's why you call in advance. I still wouldn't give my pin number to one of them, however.
Give me a friendly clerk and the store has again been accessed. Smile. As sister points out as well much is already abailable online, so. Print your list and go shopping.
Online shopping is a wonderful and beautiful thing, if you have a good grocery delivery service in your area.
The problem there is that they charge you a fee for delivery or bagging. Granted, the bar code scanner etc. might do the same but some stores have very expensive fees for delivery while other's don't. i've never gone with a shop assistant, since I just go with my boyfriend, my family or a friend but I like to shop around. I like to know what isles we're in, see what's new ec. I doubt a shop assistant would be willing to do that.
Yes. Mostly, the shop assistants just ask what you would like, and they take you there and get it for you.
to answer the question of whether everything should have to be accessible, I say no. we're blind people living in a sighted world; therefore, we should make the most of what we've got.
One thing that I did, and turned out, I think, pretty decent, was to find a person through CraigsList to assist me with chores, hda a car and accepted $20 an hour for her help, I think $15 would work honestly.
I got about 15 responses and did interviews until I found someone I was comfortable with, I know you girls might be even more careful and this might not work for all.
But I could go with her shopping once every 2 weeks or so, say to Sam's club or other stores where I could get basic stuff like chicken breast and such, and I went to a local grocery store and she could help me look around and I could take advantage of their weekly specials I subscribed to.
The money I saved on doing this, and it took may be 2 hours so $30 to $40, probably means I paid less for this than I would have for delivery or special packaging by the store.
Of course this is not accessibility, and things shouldn't be like this, but I am just suggesting it as a practical solution for someone who does live alone and wants to enjoy grocery shopping, which I actually find a lot of fun.
I thik a br code scanner is much moe independent way of doing this, but hiring a set of eyes is pretty nice, in fact I think the state should compensate someone to help you with these things up to, say, 2 hours a week or at least an hour a week, that way you can run errands independently and do the essential things.
Wow! That's way too expensive ontop of the food etc. that's being bought. The delivery fee for shopright around me is $10 no matter how long it takes you to shop online. I know that there's an agency here in my part of NJ, I think it's called HIP, that will pay for an assistant to go shopping with you, help you clean, help you read mail etc. the problem is that you have to be working or in school.
Wildebrew, two years ago two friends and I did the same thing: went on Craig's list and found someone to help us with driving, reading, shopping, and that kind of thing as needed. I would not have felt comfortable doing this alone as a woman, but my other two friends were males, and we had our initial encounters with our new reader/driver together. In the two years since we met her, this woman has become friend as well as reader and driver, and though we still pay her for her services, she's definitely gone above and beyond for us many times. In turn, we would do the same for her, if it were needed. So, in our case, the Craig's list thing worked out very well. But of course, I wouldn't recommend it for everyone, either.
Well everything is not accessible for sighted people either, so this isn't exactly a blind issue. Adapting is the way. Of course the more things that are user friendly the better, but as stated here it's not practical. I enjoy a set of eyes over machines anytime, but use a computer for most of the information I need in the world, and it's truly a blessing. Smile.
Nice to see other Craigslist users on here. YMMV but it works, and I've paid for help on things that way before.
I actually met my boyfriend through Craigslist. He responded to a personals ad, thinking that we'd just be friends cause we had things in common. He thought he was too old for me until I told him otherwise. We've been together for almost three years now. I've also worked on craigslist to promote the business for which I was working and have used it for other things as well. It's a truly wonderful site.
I've never used it before, but it sounds good when you're in need of something or someone, so I might just give it a try.
I should say this, since I played Craigslist fanboy a few posts ago:
The power of Craigslist is that you look in your area. It's broken up by geography. Then you take control of what you're looking for, what you want to purchase / provide / even give away or whatever, and talk to people in real life not just online. They are good at protecting your privacy.
That's the only thing I was worried about, so thanks.
I don't necessarily believe everything should be made accessible, but I do believe some things should. And with the advent of the IPod Touch and IPhone companies that make those damned touch screen debit card scanners have no further excuse not to. Maybe though, they could make it so the cashier can switch on the screen reader or whatever for the blind customer, then switch it off again for the next person. Although I suppose if you went shopping with a sighted companion or a personal shopper they would be able to help you. I guess the way I look at it is if a company offers to make their product accessible or takes that initiative we should definitely take advantage of it. But if not we, and yes, the other parties involved, should be willing and able to come up with alternate means of accomplishing
Ooops, pressed the wrong button. What i meant to say was accomplishing certain tasks LOL.
The only thing that concerns me about this is the fact that sighted people are not required to give their PIN to the casheer, so why should we?
You're not required to give your pin. Remember say credit please. Stand on that. Some places have to pay more for credit transactions, but they want your business, so. Smile.
i just thought of something, can people sue for things not being accessible and actually win? lol
I guess it depends how serious the situation is. I don't think you would win for something like a debit machine, but if you were physically or emotionally damaged, then you might.
In Canada, you can't use credit unless you actually have a credit card. I've looked into that before. I don't know if it's just my bank that's like that, but I can't do it.
Forereel is right. Even with a debet card, tell them to ring it up as credit, and you don't have to give your pin.
Yes, of course you can sue for things not being accessible, and win. Look at the ACB's lawsuit of the US Treasury for accessible currency. They won that. Now the question is, how and when will that accessible currency come to pass? And for anyone who might say otherwise, even though I am part of the NFB, I actually did agree with, and support ACB's lawsuit on that one. I'm not trying to start that age-old NFB/ACB debate here. There are other boards for that. It was just the best example I could think of to answer the question about lawsuits.
I think your mom was just trying to make a point. I'm sure she knew they couldn't read the braille;she was saying that effert should be made to make things accessible. Something like a card swipe should be acsesible but I don't think we should go around forcing everything to do things our way.
Of course we have a great modern example of what lawsuits can accomplish: The entire line of half-done phones from LG sold by one carrier, Verizon Partially-Wireless. LG ought to be embarrassed, not for accessibility, but because what they ended up with was half-ass, half-finished projects. Just looking at the LG 4500 or the VX series, all one has to do is look through it and see that the speech features are not done.
That's not just for us, of course, that means if someone is relying on it hands-free in their car, they'll hit a pole because they'l have to look down just to re-engage their GPS / bluetooth because the half-astards couldn't finish the job, maybe interns did it, or they don't know what a hardware development life cycle is, I don't know.
Now compare that with what you get from MobileSpeak, Talks, even Apple products (which although you don't pay for a screen reader, everyone pays for expensive hardware). These are at least finished, if not always what the user wants.
I put more confidence in the commercial or open source communities than anything a lawsuit can produce, because in engineering at least, units of measure for performance aren't just handed out on a curve like they are in litigation. I've always wondered why the political types call their motions / conclusions initiatives. The real initiative and real solutions come from the consumer market and from open source platforms / communities where real problems are really solved, not just redefined to change the meaning of something, or have folks be 'grateful' for what they get.
This isn't a blind thing: it's what litigation can get you vs. what providers actually do.
If something is inaccessible and I'm given help to access it from a sighted person, I don't care that it is inaccessible. Card machines are inaccessible to me but I am able to use them with assistance. I am greatful for all the assistance I get. A society of people who are willing to help others is a society we should all want to live in.
I agree about the currency thing. Waste of paper, but okay. Smile. I meanh I've been using the regular money for ever and well that new fangled stuff. I guess it boils donw to if something can be accomidated then it is accessible. So suits and such just go over board however.